Tuesday, July 21, 2009

Is "Everything" Really In the Torah?

Many religious Jews are always taught that everything, all knowledge that exists and will exist, can be found in the Torah. However, we have to ask ourselves, "Whose opinion is this and where does this idea come from?"

In Pirkei Avos the following mishna exists (This mishna is listed differently in different pirkei avos. It is found at the end of the fifth chapter, but the mishna can be anywhere from 19-26). "Ben Bag Bag says, Turn to it, and turn to it again, for everything is in it. Pore over it, grow old and gray over it. Do not budge from it. You can have no better guide for living than it.'" (translation is from the book of legends from Judaica classic library)

Ben Bag Bag seems to be the source of this idea that everything can be found in the Torah. However, is he actually saying that all knowledge that exists or will exist can be found in the Torah? Perhaps, the idea of "everything can be found in it" refers to something else, something a little more specific? Maybe the last words of his quotation "You can have no better guide for living than it" can shed some light on what he is really trying to say.

In relation to this Mishna, most people have heard of the following Medrash Rabba (Genesis 1:1). It says, "R. Hoshaia Rabbah began his discourse with the verse 'Then I was by Him as a nursling (amon)' (Prov. 8:30). The word amon may be read umman, meaning "overall design"--I was in the mind of the Holy One, says the Torah, like the overall design in the mind of a craftsman. In the way of the world, when a king of flesh and blood builds a palace, he builds it not according to his own whim, but according to the idea of an architect. Moreover, the architect does not build it out of his own head; he has [a design]--plans and diagrams to know how to lay out the chambers and where to put in wicket doors. Even so the Holy One looked into the Torah as He created the world."

This Medrash seemingly tells us that G-D had the Torah before He created the physical world and that He used the Torah to create the physical world. On a simple level it seems that since G-D used the Torah to create the entire world that everything in the physical world (physics, biology, etc) should be able to be found in the Torah. However, this Medrash might not be as simple as it appears. Perhaps the Medrash is coming to teach us about the goal of creation and not just some simplistic reading that the Torah was an actual blueprint for all of creation.

I think that once we understand this Medrash in the proper way then we will be able to understand what Ben Bag Bag is trying to tell us. The Medrash is pointing out to us that G-D created the physical world with a specific purpose and that purpose can be found in the Torah. Therefore, once we understand the purpose of creation then we can understand the true meaning of the Torah. So what is the purpose of creation?

If we look at some verses in Tanach a proper understanding of this Medrash can be attained. In Mishlei (3:19) it says, "G-D founded the earth on wisdom." Then in Psalms (111:10) it says, "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of G-D." The Eitz Yosef and the Anaf Yosef on the first Medrash in Medrash Tanchuma tell us that the Torah is referred to as "the beginning." This means that the only way for one to acquire wisdom is to fear G-D and the only way to fear G-D is to learn the Torah. Therefore, "G-D looked into the Torah and created the world" means that He saw that the only way man could acquire wisdom in this world was to couple all of his (man's) learning with a fear of G-D. The Gra in the beginning of Mishlei tells us this as well. Only once a person has a fear of G-D can they acquire any type of knowledge. They can learn as much as they want, but until they have a fear of G-D all of their learning, in any subject, is worthless. This is because without a proper foundation nothing is stable. Learing anything without having a fear of G-D is like building a castle on quicksand, it takes a lot of work, but in the end there is nothing.

I think the idea that attaining knowledge is contingent on a fear of G-D needs to be explained. It seems to me that the only way one can truly know something is true is by having a belief in G-D. For example, no archeologist can ever be 100% certain that something happened in the past. They can make logical assumptions based on fractured pieces of evidence that they put together, but they can never really KNOW. However, a belief in G-D allows the believer to know that something is true. I can know that certain things are true because I believe in a G-D that controls the world or that set up nature in a certain way. However, why should someone who does not believe in G-D think that nature will remain constant? What is causing that person to think that nature works indefinitely? Therefore, a person that does not believe in G-D can never truly know something. Without G-D there are no objective truths.

This leads us to the purpose of creation. The purpose of creation, according to this Medrash, would then be for man to acquire wisdom. This goes beautifully with the Rambam and Ralbag's understanding of the immortality of the human soul. What part of a man is considered to live eternally? The Rambam and Ralbag both tell us that it is the acquired intellect of a person that lives eternally and will experience heaven. If this is true, then it must be that the goal of G-D's creation was man and his ability to acquire heaven.

Now we can explain the idea that Ben Bag Bag brings down. What does it mean that everything is found in the Torah? It does not literally mean that all wisdom is found in the Torah, but something much more basic. Everything that will lead you on the proper path to acquiring a fear of G-D is found in the Torah. This can also be seen from the last words that Ben Bag Bag says, "You can have no better GUIDE for living than it." It is impossible to live properly without a fear of G-D. Without a fear of G-D there is no wisdom to be acquired and your life will end up without meaning. However, with a fear of G-D, all wisdom is attainable and furthermore, heaven WILL be acquired.

*********(Later Addition to show I didn't make this up myself)
This is exactly what the Meiri says on this Mishna in Avos. The Meiri says,

"(Ben Bag Bag) is giving a warning that it is not enough to just have a crude reading of the Torah, rather it needs to be read over and over, meaning many times. If one reads it over and over then a person will be able to answer any doubts they had in their heart with it (the Torah). This is the idea of "Everything is in it."

The Meiri is telling us that when Ben Bag Bag says that "Everything is in it" he is telling us that we can answer up any questions that we have with the validity of the Torah. We don't need to look at other religions or science to figure out the truth of the Torah, we just need to really understand the Torah and what it is coming to teach. Since it comes to teach a fear of G-D this means that we will be able to truly believe in G-D and have a fear of G-D once we understand the Torah in all of its glory. Now, once you understand the Torah and you have acquire this fear of G-D, you are ready to acquire true knowledge.

The Medrash and Ben Bag Bag do not mean to say that one can learn to become a doctor through the Torah. However, they are teaching us that in order to acquire real knowledge that will lead a person to the proper path, the path to heaven, then a person needs a fear of G-D.

****UPDATE*******
See Rav Josh Waxman's post that deals with this issue as well:
parshablog: Should one study secular subjects, independently of Torah?

16 comments:

Chaim B. said...

>>>The Medrash and Ben Bag Bag do not mean to say that one can learn to become a doctor through the Torah

Whether one can become a doctor just from learning Torah is a different issue than the question of whether medical knowledge is contained in the Torah. Just because we lack the skills to extract such knowledge or to apply it does not mean it's not there.

Ramban in his essay "Torah Hashem Temima" (p. 158-159 in the Chavel edition) writes that all knowledge of the natural world is hinted at in Torah (specifically in the parsha of ma'aseh braishis). Also, Maharal in Ch Aggados to Menachos 64 on the issur of chochmas yevanis seems to say the same.
The GR"A is also known to have held that all historical events are alluded to in Torah (see http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2003/parsha/rsch_kitetzei.html).

E-Man said...

I agree with you that the ramban holds like what you are saying. However, you did not address any of the points I brought up. I am not sure if you are right about the Maharal. Also, if all medical knowledge is in the Torah then one should be able to become a doctor through the Torah, no?

E-Man said...

>>>The Medrash and Ben Bag Bag do not mean to say that one can learn to become a doctor through the Torah

My point here is that practical scientific knowledge is not necessarily found in the Torah. As I said in the post, biology, physics etc. I believe this is the opinion of at least the Meiri.

E-Man said...

Chaim-"The GR"A is also known to have held that all historical events are alluded to in Torah (see http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2003/parsha/rsch_kitetzei.html)."

Although this is a nice idea it is just a story and it doesn't refer to anything I talked about. I was talking about knowledge of secular studies like physics, biology, etc.

Chaim B. said...

>>>Also, if all medical knowledge is in the Torah then one should be able to become a doctor through the Torah, no?

The Ramban writes that he was not on the level of understanding the sodos encapsulated in ma'aseh braishis. Just because the info is there does not mean it is accessible to anyone.

>>>You did not address any of the points I brought up.

Such as...? Maharal in Ch Aggados does not understand ben bag bag as you do. So in addition to the qualifier you have already added (you are speaking of "practical knowledge", not "everything", as you wrote in the title), I think to be fair you should further qualify that you are suggesting your own approach that not Rishonim would agree with. That's all.
Also, the Midrash seems to suggest far more than you allow. The idea of a blueprint suggests that every specific detail in planned, not just that there is a general goal to the construction project. That there is a goal is pashut -- the chiddush is davka that the specifics are mapped out as well.

E-Man said...

OK now I can have a back and forth. I don't think the Maharal is saying what you think it is saying. If you want me to go through the whole chidush on that aggadita I will. But even if he disagreed that would be ok.

Chaim said- I think to be fair you should further qualify that you are suggesting your own approach that not Rishonim would agree with.

Um sorry for bursting your bubble, but I got this idea from the Meiri on avos. He says, "If a person goes over the torah again and again he will find an answer to any doubt he had on the Torah and this is what Ben Bag Bag means when he says everything is in it." So according to the meiri, "everything being in it" does not mean that all of knowledge in the world is in it, but rather that you can find the answers to all of your doubts on it. Otherwise, why wouldn't the meiri just say that kulu bah means that all knowledge is contained within it?

Chaim said-Also, the Midrash seems to suggest far more than you allow. The idea of a blueprint suggests that every specific detail in planned, not just that there is a general goal to the construction project. That there is a goal is pashut -- the chiddush is davka that the specifics are mapped out as well.

You misunderstood what I said, I guess. I said that G-D looked at the Torah and saw that the only way the world could exist was if He instilled within the creation fear of G-D. The goal of creation was man to acquire knowledge. The construction of the world to fulfill this goal is a construction of fear of G-D, because fear of G-D leads to an acquisition of knowledge.

Also, like I mentioned in my post, I think a basic reading of this medrash is simplistic. In fact, I quoted the anaf yosef and eitz yosef from the midrash tanchuma that has the same idea that even says what I am saying.

Chaim said-
So in addition to the qualifier you have already added (you are speaking of "practical knowledge", not "everything", as you wrote in the title),

I apologize, I mean to say, the main focus of this idea was about practical knowledge. Being able to point out the Gra could predict the future from the Torah does not in any way prove that everything is in the Torah.

E-Man said...

I think you are right though, I should put the Meiri in the post.

Mike S. said...

The Ramban writes that he was not on the level of understanding the sodos encapsulated in ma'aseh braishis. Just because the info is there does not mean it is accessible to anyone.

If the information is not accessible to anyone, in what sense is it there? It is not as though Hakadosh Baruch Hu needs a crib sheet.

E-Man said...

Mike S. I think that he means it is only available to very few. Just to put a number on it, let's say 10 people per generation. Otherwise, I would have to agree with you and say that doesn't make any sense.

E-Man said...

Chaim, can you tell me which siman and perek the Ramban that you are referring to is in. Thanks

Garnel Ironheart said...

This is actually an easy question to answer.

During the second tochachah in Devarim the Torah, after listing all the nassssty punishments we're in for if we abandon Torah and God, notes "and lots of other things not written in this Torah".

The Torah itself notes that there are things it doesn't mention. Like the recipe for chicken soup.

But what is true is that the approach to everything is through the Torah.

Chaim B. said...

>>>If the information is not accessible to anyone, in what sense is it there?

Mike S. -- let's say Shakespeare conceived of a brilliant code to buried treasure and weaved it into his works using gematriyos and allusions (think of the Davinci Code!). Even if no one has yet cracked the code, does that mean the information is not there?

E-Man said...

Chaim B. really, whenever you get the chance I really want to know the perek and siman of the toras hashem temima for the ramban you were talking about. I have a different version and I am unsure which part you are talking about.

E-Man said...

Also, this whole idea about a code that no one can access is not comparable to any code that is man made. All codes that are man made were made to be accessed. Da vinci made his code so only other masons could find mary magdalins tome. Also, codes that were made so armies could communicate. All of these were made to convey information, therefore hey could be cracked. So a code that is made for no one to crack and is not accessibe to anyone would not be considered a real code. If someone made up a code that was incoherent, would that really be considered a code? No one can crack it or understand it, is this a code? A language that is understood by no one is considered a language? So if I write random letters that is a code?

Chaim B. said...

There are no "perakim" in Toras Hashem Temima. As I wrote, in the Chavel ed. it is p. 158, which is about midway through.

>>>code that no one can access

Who said "no one" can access it? What I said was the Ramban said he couldn't access it, and I doubt we could, but certain Chachamei hagemara could. See also the Ramban's hakdamah to the Torah where is writes the entire Torah consists of the sheimos of Hashem in code (nafka minah l'halacha: chaseiros v'yeseiros would therefore be m'akeiv, see Minchas Chinuch on kesivas s"t). Obviously this code is hidden esoteric wisdom accessible only to chachmei hamesorah versed in that wisdom.

>>>Gra could predict the future from the Torah

That is not what the GR"A said. What he said was history is *encoded* in the Torah, right down to his own existance at a specific point in time. There is a parallel between the Ramban's claim that natural science is encoded in the Torah and GR"A's claim that Torah is an encoded map of history. See also Tzidkas haTzadik of R' Tzadok haKohen #90.

E-Man said...

Chaim B. said- Just because the info is there does not mean it is accessible to anyone.

Chaim B. Also said-Who said "no one" can access it? What I said was the Ramban said he couldn't access it, and I doubt we could, but certain Chachamei hagemara could.

I think you can see how the first statement seems like you are saying that no one can access it. Your later understanding sounds like what I was saying. Thank you for the clarification, I agree with you on that.

Chaim B. said-The GR"A is also known to have held that all historical events are alluded to in Torah.

Chaim B. also said-That is not what the GR"A said. What he said was history is *encoded* in the Torah, right down to his own existance at a specific point in time.

So technically the GRA could could predict the future based on the Torah according to this no?

Chaim B. said- There are no "perakim" in Toras Hashem Temima. As I wrote, in the Chavel ed. it is p. 158, which is about midway through.

That is so funny that your Toras Hashem Temima has no perakim or simanim, mine does. I guess I have a newer version. I will look again. Do you know what the subject matter around that area was? Thanks.